What strange movie questions bother you? It works on a superficial level, but the more I think about it, the less it makes sense, and the more I want to discover a way for it to make sense. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. I rewatched Se7en the other night and specifically went searching the internet for the reason why a man who is FORCED to stay in bed by his captor would be considered lazy. On Colin Farrell and the Shifting Definition of MovieStardom, New Escapist Column! And that Took a fair amount of time to come up with that. Putting a lot of Sloth into it: Sloth inse7en, New Escapist Video! He wanted a normal family life like Mills had; when Tracy Mills (Gwyneth Paltrow) refused to go along with him, he killed her, making her a victim of Envy, her death off-screen and her unseen, decapitated head mailed to Mills and Somerset in the desert. "People still think they used a dummy in that scene," says MacKay, now 67. Slade chooses the latter and becomes Doe's fifth murder victim, representing the sin of pride. The nature ofSe7en's city is used by Doe to justify his crimes, as its people are deemed apathetic, and the murders are intended to shock them into creating a better world. Heres what I mean: It only takes a minute to sign up. The "Sloth" victim was Victor (Michael Reid MacKay), a notorious paedophile. Doe's next victim is Eli Gould, a criminal defense attorney forced to cut off a pound of his own flesh, representing the sin of greed in the style of The Merchant of Venice. Throughout the film, Mills is considered Somerset's successor, and Doe's targeting of the young detective is seemingly a way of forcing Somerset to take stock of himself. The one they wanted him to make was a water down cop drama (I think.). b.) This quote is important as it further proves that John Doe's actions had their desired effect on his adversaries. This left me feeling hollow about the rest of the film for I feel that none of the other murders, with the possible exception of wrath, managed to capture this feeling. Of course she chose to overdose rather than call for help. But Tracy wouldn't play along, so he took a souvenir-Tracy's head. Submissions should be for the purpose of informing or initiating a discussion, not just to entertain readers. ", McGinley calls the finalscene "plain horrifying." Is it plausible for constructed languages to be used to affect thought and control or mold people towards desired outcomes? Envy is jealousy. Mills killing John Doe is more significant than simply being the seventh murder and the representation of wrath. Edit, First, Gluttony was wearing a shirt, so we couldn't see very well under the table to notice whether or not his abdomen had actually broken open. It was also revealed that he had chewed off his own tongue 'long ago' in an attempt at suicide. [better source needed]Views concerning the virtue of work to support . I am royally freaked the fuck out right now, calming myself down like 'I'm okay.. Lust may be specifically seen as excessive thoughts or desires of a sexual nature, which can manifest as sexual addiction, fornication, adultery, bestiality, rape, perversion, and incest. Spaceys monologue sells the whole film and almost reads like a letter of intent to the viewer as to why the movie is being presented in a dark, disturbing fashion. Humongous cave bears, saber-toothed tigers, and massive-antlered Irish elk roam the grasslands and forests of South America, but the biggest of all is the Megatherium, an elephant-sized ground sloth. If its drug dealer inducing sloth argument then John Doe is guilty of sloth as well. I'm just glad the film dedicated so little time to that one. ncdu: What's going on with this second size column? Unless you accept the well-argued comment above about sloth being mroe spiritual than literal. Does the movie give any clues as to Mills fate? My favorite murder of this film was pride. Itfelt so good to go home andget a shower. After all, even the survivor from the first film is [spoiler] irrevocably changed by her experiences. What is the relationship between Betty and Gilbert and how is her husband involved? Read our extensive list of rules for more information on other types of posts like fan-art and self-promotion, or message the moderators if you have any questions. Seeing the poor guy sit in the interrogation room with the sheet around his shoulders and the knife dildo still on him, you realize how big it is and how much terrible damage something like that would do. ending twist is a relatively simple one, and that's part of what makes it so effective: though the box's grisly contents are never shown (or even explicitly described), it's made clear that it contains Tracy's severed head, and it's Mills' actions afterward that are most significant to Se7en's conclusion. (LogOut/ He was rendered immobile tied to a bed and left to rot in his own excriment with a feeding tube. Think about R. Lee Ermeys line in the film about Victor being raised a strict Southern Baptist but eschewing it in favor of dealing drugs (neither a difficult or virtuous job) and being a paedophile (real relationships take work and commitment, overpowering a minor with rape is neither difficult nor committed). Often listed among the most popular and well-loved thriller movies of all time,Se7en proved to be something of a star vehicle for the then up-and-coming Brad Pitt. Se7en's finale sees the sins of wrath and envy ultimately committed by Mills and Doe. Finite abelian groups with fewer automorphisms than a subgroup. Again I was baffled. Choosing being a criminal and to rape children is easy to do, because he chooses not to work hard and prefers to make money in the easy way, meaning forms of both physical and mental sloth. The doctor explains to the detectives that the man's inner abdominal wall was what had ruptured. Victor, the third victim (Sloth), was tied to his bed for exactly a year; keeping a person alive and hidden for that amount of time implies an enormous amount of preparation as well as dedication. I couldnt think of any occupation that embodied sloth. Change). But to enrage him, he needed to hurt him really bad. And David Berkowitz, better known as the Son of Sam, said that a possessed dog told him to commit his crimes. Thanks Casper. But like any movie that is this thought out and detailed, there are dozens of little Easter eggs and tidbits that the average audience member would never notice. Single gsw. Thanks Sen. Its not a bad point, but it still seems a bit more of a reach than the other sins. I hadn't seen this movie in years and, seeing the photos, thought you meant alive that year. I think pride was the choice made after the disfigurement: There are also Seven Holy Virtues which directly contradict each of the Sins. Yeah I can definitely see Fincher doing a zombie movie. But thatwas me. What are the seven deadly sins? It isnt exactly meeting deadlines or pushing paper. She was provided with a telephone to call an ambulance, hence living life disfigured and scarred, and sleeping pills to commit suicide and escape the life of disfigurement. suicide by pills. Ugh, I really hate how eager my mind is to fill in the blanks. Victor was discovered by police exactly a year after his kidnapping, after John Doe used his hand while killing Greed. and the coroner replies "Yes and no.". Movies & TV Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for movie and TV enthusiasts. She probably swallowed the pills and chased them down with her own blood. According to Christian tradition the seven deadly sins are: envy, gluttony, greed or avarice, lust, pride, sloth, and wrath. Ugh just the brief flash of the Polaroid is enough to get your imagination going to dark places. He planned that after the first murders some detective will catch his trace. However Mills getting hurt during the chase scene was actually a part of the script already, so it sort of worked out. @HorusKol The argument of the statement is, we've had 25 years to pick it apart and analyse and/or compare to movies that have done something similar, ripped off and or both and did it better. He didnt directly kill him by imposing sloth upon him, he forced him to live the sloth lifestyle for ages and then he died. Read our extensive list of rules for more information on other types of posts like fan-art and self-promotion, or message the moderators if you have any questions. Eventually, John announces that they have reached the spot, and the car pulls over near some high-tension electrical wires. I honestly never really understood that scene. ("Against Idleness and Mischief" by Isaac Watts). At the third crime scene the detectives find a man by the name of Victor. Morgan Freeman's Somerset delivers the short but meaningful line:"Ernest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' When they were filming the scene where the police discover the "sloth" victim, the members of the SWAT team weren't told that the victim was supposed to still be alive, so their reaction when he starts moving is real. Throughout the film, there are gruesome scenes involving pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth. In short; Tracy told John Doe she was pregnant. From what I gather in popular culture, it works in a fairly simple manner: a few people show up, pay you a large amount of money, and then leave. He dealt drugs, so he earned a living (even a criminal one). But in real life, John Hinckley Jr. shot (but didn't kill) President Ronald Reagan and said that he did it because of his obsession with Jodie Foster. Edit. YMMV /. Am I thinking about this too much? The argument "it's old so it's bad" is simply horrible. Victor was subsequently sent to a hospital, where he was diagnosed as being brain dead. I agree with the second part." On The Third Season of Star Trek: Picard as a Choice Between Tired Clichs and PoorWriting, New Escapist Column! RELATED:The 10 Most Terrifying Monster Movies of the 90s, Ranked. It's a fictional city of constant rain and urban decay that mirrors the general tone of the film. Dont get me wrong, I like it when directors take trashy genres and class them up, but I guess I prefer it when something more interesting is done with story and character. Its amazing and sometimes bizarre the questions we have after watching a film particularly after weve already seen it, so we arent focusing on the plot so much. William Somerset and John Doe are different takes on the Only Sane Man, knowing well how bad the world is, but differ on how they deal with it (which essentially makes Doe Somerset's Evil Counterpart ). Unfortunately our killer interpreted what the classical definition of sloth was. Which is to me just as (if not more) sadistic than John Does okay, youre dead in a horrific manner. Not that either option is anything less than horrifying. I heard very soon afterwardI had it.". Somerset tries to get Mills to hand over his gun, but Mills goes crazy and shoots John six times. I dimissed it as first as nothing more than a shock horror but as I've grown older and rewatched it a few more times, it's clear that this is Fincher at his most raw and elemental. Although Kevin Spacey is obviously the biggest name actor to appear in the film behind Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman, his presence in the film was a total surprise. By manipulating Detective Mills into killing him and bringing his plan to fruition, John Doe wins. i think, the victims were killed by the corresponding deadly sin. Seven (stylized as Se7en) is a 1995 American neo-noir psychological crime thriller film, directed by David Fincher and starring Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt as homicide detectives William Somerset and David Mills. Thoughthe film's ending leaves its narrative open, there's no need for a sequel toSe7en. rev2023.3.3.43278. The goal of /r/Movies is to provide an inclusive place for discussions and news about films with major releases. Doe probably also had his eye on Eli Gould, the second victim (Greed), because he was the one who kept Victor out of jail. How did John Doe know that Tracy was pregnant? Where are Billy Crudup, Kate Hudson, Patrick Fugit now? Doe strapped Allen to his bed and kept him barely alive for a full year, taking and leaving pictures to prove Allen's suffering in line with the sin of sloth. The actor was toldhe was basically a corpse, so he had to remain entirely still until his big moment. Was it common to switch knives and forks from left to right hands? Not only did he succeed in manipulating Mills, but he also shocked Somerset out of his own apathy, forcing the older detective to reevaluate his choice to retire. But did fans notice these cool, hidden details? The big reveal of Kevin Spacey being John Doe and the actual serial killer is saved up until very near to the end of the film, however, it's not the first time that Spacey/John Doe makes his appearance in the film. It can also be either an outright refusal or merely a carelessness in the performance of one's obligations, especially spiritual, moral or legal obligations. Thats not necessarily right. Very fair point, certainly on dealing drugs. He is tied to his bed and barely alive. Sloth is defined as spiritual or emotional apathy, neglecting what God has spoken, and being physically and emotionally inactive. No crime scene in "Seven" was more gruesome than the one that awaited Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman as they burst through a wooddoor to find "Sloth.". Sloth, as it was understood by the early theologians who formulated the seven deadly sins, is called Socordia or akedia in Latin and Greek respectively and referred to the idea of failing to foster or develop spiritual virtue because it is difficult or taxing. This is further proven by Somerset's decision not to retire, as he's shocked out of his apathy, which is referred to in an earlier scene where he discusses his reasons for retiring with Mills. Edit, If by "simple" locations you mean city streets and buildings; it costs a fortune to get permits to shut down streets and buildings in metropolitan cities. Submissions should be for the purpose of informing or initiating a discussion, not just to entertain readers. Doe explains to Mills that he tried to live out his normal life of being happily married and in love with a. I made a screen shot here. LOL, I JUST saw this while watching this clip. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. The main killer in the movie is actually never shown killing any of his victims, and the only on-screen death in the whole film is when Detective Mills kills John Doe in the very end. . What LA doesn't have is the weather. None of them really got off easy. When I first watched it I jumped so high I could've landed on the moon. However I would say yes, don't think about it so muchthe film is 25 years old nowthere are bound to be some plot holes. Edit, The location is purposely not revealed. The sin that got me was Pride. However, when Somerset and Mills are talking to the coroner a few scenes later and the victim's body is lying on the table, we still don't see any sign that his abdomen had actually split open. It is unknown if Doe had originally intended another person as the Wrath victim before he met Mills, and decided Mills would be the perfect candidate (he can be heard mentioning over the phone that he will be readjusting his schedule); but it makes sense that he intended the seventh victim to be an officer anyway: an officer of the law driven to the point of killing an unarmed suspect would attract a lot of (media) attention, and would ensure that his work would be discussed for years to come. You were 100% not reading too much into it. Se7en is a creative and bold film with an ending so shocking that it still hasn't lost its luster. Edit, It may differ from victim to victim, but a significant amount of planning for at least two victims may be assumed. Detective Mills is "Wrath"; when John Doe reveals what he has done to Tracy, Mills becomes enraged and shoots John Doe, making him the fatality of the sin Wrath. After this, Mills and Somerset are hot on the trail of Se7en's killer, and John Doeaccelerates his plans. Here are 10 Brad Pitt's Real Life Injury In case the title of the film and the entire plot didn't get the point across, the number seven has a lot of significance within the movie. On Why Faithfulness is Not a Measure of Quality in Adaptation, New Podcast! How was that anywhere near as bad as the sloth victim? 2023 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Satellite Information Network, LLC. Thanks, Pat. Edit, Se7en is based on a script by American screenwriter Andrew Kevin Walker. The SLOTH victim, exactly why was he to be tortured to death "this" way? MacKay still receives healthy residual paymentsfor his "Seven" role and considers it a career highpoint. Doe hoped that in turn Mills would then kill him, fulfilling the final sin, wrath (which also makes sure John is punished by death for his sin). The ending sees the seven sins properly represented and cements the film's setting as a purgatory-like location, with Somerset staying on as a detective to continue to fight against the evil that John Doe embodies. And in his masterpiece the mills who e is driven to wrath , vs that being his everyday sin circumstantial sin in the moment .unlike his other victims mills survived. Sloth can also indicate a wasting due to lack of use, concerning a person, place, thing, skill, or intangible ideal that would require maintenance, refinement, or support to continue to exist. the fat guy died by eating, the whore by sex, the junkie by lying in bed. Pride is seen as the most serious sin, from which all others arise; a love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbour. To be honest though, I stumbled on this blog looking for more theories about the research into the victims deterioration. Sloth means spiritual laziness. Police also discovered numerous polaroid photos depicting Victor as his condition worsened throughout the year. 2. Never noticed it until someone pointed it out. Gluttony is over-indulgence and over-consumption of anything to the point of waste. Like, which website? So the serial killer starts killing the sinners by the way they perform their sins. I dont know. (LogOut/ It's a very engaging premise to begin with, regarding the antagonist. While it does have the feel of New York City with the Subway sound vibrating Detective Mill's home, the finale has the main characters driving out into a flat plains surrounded by mountains. However, the film studio was initially very strongly against this plot twist, as they thought it was far too dark for mainstream audiences to enjoy. Niall is also a certified boxing coach, which goes hand-in-hand with his encyclopedic knowledge of the Rocky franchise, and considers himself something of an expert on Batman. The crimes of Kevin Spacey's John Doe are particularly heinous and disturbing, with each one based on a different facet of the seven deadly sins. When McGinley'staunting California leanedover him, telling the criminal, "Yougot what youdeserved," MacKay sprang to life in a death-rattle fit. User Ratings Seven - Sloth Scene os99 213 subscribers 1.1M views 14 years ago This is the discovery of the Sloth victim in the 1995 masterpiece Seven (or Se7en). You can find a list and meanings of the seven deadly sins below. MacKay insists that an unsuspecting McGinley'sreal shock at hisfirst move was capturedinthe first take: "I did scare the (stuff) out of him. This man happens to be a drug dealer and child molester, representing sloth. Se7en is a legendary horror film for a whole lot of reasons, but the most memorable aspect of the film in most people's minds is obviously the whole "what's in the box" moment. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Laziness is choice. There is no definitive answer to that anywhere in the movie. Yep, its still something I find interesting. Perhaps, as the prostitute might be argued to encourage lust, you could argue that a drug dealer encourages and enables sloth he allows and fuels a lifestyle built around that particular deadly sin. I dont know. Press J to jump to the feed. By killing Doe, Mills fulfills the killer's plan, making Doe victorious even in death. The goal of /r/Movies is to provide an inclusive place for discussions and news about films with major releases. On the other hand, I suppose, as I sit here thinking about it, you could argue that John Doe wouldnt consider selling drugs to be a job at all. Here are 10. And in honor of the number seven, David Fincher buried a little tidbit in the movie exactly seven minutes before the movie is about to end. So basically because she was beautiful she had to be taught a lesson? There were several species of giant sloths, but the largest was Megatherium Americanum. Metacritic Reviews. Doe's first victim is unnamed in the film, but he was force-fed by John until his stomach exploded, making him the representation of gluttony. Why does the age of the film mean it will have plot holes? At that particular moment, the film is reaching its climatic and horrific end, and there is a single frame of Gwyneth Paltrow's face that appears on screen at the very second that begins the seven-minute countdown to the end in a little homage to the brutal realization of what exactly is in the box. Everyone working on the film felt equally as strongly about keeping the ending the way it was though, so much so that Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, and David Fincher all said that they wouldn't do the film if the script was changed. call ambulance, live, but wind up disfigured; Thanks for the good read. Niall can be found on Twitter @lordofthegray. David Fincher's Se7en boasts one of the most memorable endings in cinematic history, cementing its pop culture relevance even decades after its release. SE7EN in: Sins Sloth (Victim) Edit Theodore "Victor" Allen was a drug dealer, pedophile and one of John Doe's victims. Se7en Plot Synopsis. Taunting the detective, Doe reveals that he has killed Mills' wife, Tracy (and their unborn child), as he envied Mills' normal life. Why? Much like sloth in this film, you need to get out more. "For Satan finds some mischief still for idle hands to do." I think it was the choice itself that marked her sin as pride. However, the film overtly references the box's contents, making it clear exactly what was in the box. Where does this (supposedly) Gibson quote come from? I agree with the second part." This serves as the film's big twist - that Tracy is dead and Mills was always intended to be the final part of Doe's plan - with Mills' sudden comprehension of the situation enough to push him to murder Doe and embody the sin of wrath. For lust, he had another person kill a prostitute. And boy, do his ideas for murder get creative and ugly. It literally makes them experience time slowed down. Still alive to win titles are Berks Catholic's . And this guy said, 'Sir,I loved in you in 'Seven,' " MacKay recalls. How did John Doe select his victims? It has also been speculated that the city represents a ruinedGarden of Eden(or a Paradise Lost, as Doe often refers to it), with the killer seemingly believing that mankind's sins are to blame for the state ofSe7en's city. Hello, well technically the term sloth as a sin, encompasses not only laziness, but idling and wasting your life away, without doing anything substantial. The X-Cast Season 9, Episode 2 (Nothing Important Happened TodayII), New Escapist Column! A sort of, no good can come from here place. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Remember that the reason the police are visiting the Sloth victim are because his fingerprints were identified at the Greed murder scene. To me, the motivations of John Doe never made sense. The pattern is quite apparent, not least of which because its in the title of the film. Except envy, John Doe himself.